Tzakhi (00:01)
Hi Jamie.
Jamie (00:02)
Hey Taki, good afternoon.
Tzakhi (00:04)
Good afternoon. Thanks for coming. We're at the Meet Capital Startup Podcast with Jamie Johnston, co-founder and CEO of Matter, Mattersocial, a very interesting dating app. I wanted to have you on the show. First of all, I think what you're doing is interesting and the investors that listen to this podcast would like to hear about what you're doing. But I think the founders would also love to
taking your experience in sales, you're using it for your process of reaching investors and you're doing a great job with that. So I thought that we should talk and tell startups about what you're doing. But maybe first, if you can tell us a bit about Matters Social.
Jamie (00:49)
Of course, thank you so much for having me. Really looking forward to this conversation. So, Matter, as you mentioned, there is a dating app, but we're dating up with a real key difference. We really wanna come in and disrupt this space.
and make it a lot more inclusive, empowered, and just generally less toxic. I'm sure a lot of your listeners will have experience with the dating app world and know how overwhelming, exhausting that can be. The idea came during the pandemic. I was diagnosed with ADHD. I was taken out of the workplace and society. I was really struggling with the lack of stimulation. And when I went back into the workplace after my diagnosis, I was I was very kind of, you know, fine talking to people about that and helping within the office with the kind of inclusion and D&I.
The one place I felt crippled with fear about being truthful about who I was, was when I was online dating. And I didn't really know why that was. And so that's where the idea for MATIC came from, was to create something that provided people with a space where they could be open and honest about who they were and connect with others that were doing the exact same thing.
Tzakhi (01:52)
Yeah, it's interesting that, you know, it's such a, it's a, you said it yourself, I think, a saturated space, you found a niche that's still untapped. And I think you should also mention that you have some of like real industry leaders backing you, which is extraordinary because people that really know the space and have done stuff in the space, I think you have executives from Tinder, Bumble, am I right?
Jamie (01:59)
Mm-hmm.
Yeah, so I think it was really interesting when we pitched the product out right at the beginning stages was getting those industry experts and something I'll come on to in terms of the in terms of how we do the sales here. But yeah, you we have, you know, ex CFO from Bumble, ex head of product of Badoo, ex head of marketing from field, who are who are all backers of the business as advisors and angels. And we also have some real leaders in the mental health and neurodiverse space, which are two key markets for us.
population of the world is neurodiverse. If you add that with poor mental health, you're looking at roughly 40% now of young people. And yet there was nothing out there that supported these people. So to be clear, we're an app for everyone, but we support the people that need it. So they feel that they can come on and use our product without changing their behaviors and making their symptoms worse. So yeah, we were really heavily backed by both the business world, the dating world, and also the health world very early on, which really gave validation and credibility to what we were doing. It actually made our race,
Much easier when you've got those people behind you as you've mentioned there, but they've been a real support to us for sure
Tzakhi (03:24)
How did you meet them?
Jamie (03:27)
Yeah, it's interesting questions really. You know, it's, they, I can't really tell you how exactly I met each other, every single one, but they kind of came through, you know, the network that we've got and people that we had within the business and then you meet one and you can go to another. People I was connected with, my background was sales, but within the advertising sector. I knew someone that, I knew, I worked with someone that knew the ex head of marketing from field. So I went and pitched the idea to her. The Purdue guy came through our COO said,
I know someone that knows this guy, and then he introduced me to the Bumble guy. So it was about trying to kind of find that conduit, that person that could connect you to the first one. And once you've got one, you can start rolling, but it's really about the network and kind of reaching out to the people and just trying to just pick their brains. At the beginning, it was more like, look, I've got an idea, I've got a deck, I've done a lot of research, what do you think? And, you know.
A lot of people jumped on it very quickly, saying like, look, this is a big deal. We think you've really undercover a real sizeable gap in the market. We'd love to kind of get involved with the business. So the idea obviously, and what we're doing really helped to kind of get those people on board.
Tzakhi (04:33)
Yeah, so you started by actively seeking out people that are experts in your field, both because of what they can teach you and how to build a business and how to succeed in the business, but also because of the validation that they give you later with other investors and with other potential business partners, et cetera. So I think that was a great move. And the beginning is just groping through around through your connections and trying to get anyone.
to introduce you or get you across to those, I don't know, for a better word, power
players in your field so that you can connect with them.
Jamie (05:06)
Mm-hmm. Exactly, yeah, exactly that. It's been a game changer for the business having the credibility of those logos on our...
on our cred stack, but also, you know, we do weekly calls with quite a few of them. You know, they teach us a hell of a lot about the industry and about, you know, just about being a founder as well. It's really important that we're talking to people that have been there and got the t-shirt. But yeah, they've been able to open a lot of doors, move the business forward, both financially with the connections, but also with the knowledge that they provide. So it's been, it's been, yeah, they've been instrumental to getting us to where we are today. And I would say to anyone starting a business that getting those people on board is really
and it really does give you credibility. And we noticed that from looking at the data of our deck. So whenever the deck goes out to people, that more often than not, one of the most popular slides is our industry backers slide. And that will just show you how important they are.
Tzakhi (06:00)
Well, obviously, when you're early on as you are, you need any kind of point of validation to get investors to be convinced that their money is going to a safe place or at least to some place that has a good chance of success, a reasonable chance of success. So there isn't a lot of validation that you can get. So where do you get it from? The investors are a great source of validation in your case. And I think it's a
Jamie (06:18)
Mm-hmm.
Tzakhi (06:29)
You know, as a method, it's something to take for other startups is to start by reaching out to people that can give that kind of validation and the experience that they can give you.
Jamie (06:41)
For sure. And I think before you go to that stage, we did a lot of research. So I think the thing I would say to people starting a business is find out, you know, get some numbers, get some credible numbers of people that are interested in your product or people that are interested in the market and be able to take that to those investors. I mean, our first original pitch deck wasn't, you know, wasn't anything sexy. You know, it wasn't anything amazing. It was done on Canva. We had really no logos and branding back then. It was just like, this is the idea. This is the market. Here's the research that we did.
research where we were inundated with people wanting to do it. So I think I spoke to you at the beginning where I said we worked with an influencer who had an audience that we wanted to survey, we asked them to promote the survey. We had 1,600 people do that survey across two days which is someone that worked in the advertising industry did a lot of surveys about products.
That's a pretty big number to get back unpaid and unincentivized. And with that amount of data, you can really tell a credible story about what people are after. So that enabled us to go to those backers and those real experts and say, like, hey, look, this is what the market's looking at. No one's doing this right now. And you guys know that because you're in it. What do you what do you think about the product? So I think the first thing to do before going to those people is have something credible to go to them with. I think you need to have something solid before you've got the MVP,
user data, it's something solid that you can say, hey, we're going to start this and this is what the market thinks, and then go to those people.
Tzakhi (08:10)
So first step is market research that gives validation to the idea, shaping the idea according to the data that you get from the actual potential clients and from the field, then using that to get your initial backers and try to get the kind of backers that are most experienced both for what they can teach you and for the validation they can give you. Okay, now from that point, you start reaching out to a broader set of investors.
Jamie (08:38)
Mm-hmm.
Tzakhi (08:41)
Yeah, and how do you use your sales experience to make
Jamie (08:47)
Yeah, so I think that, like I said, the first thing to do is research, get credible, get some user case studies, then take that out to the closest connections that you're going to be able to have. So friends and family and people that believe in you as a person, your conviction to pull this idea off because they're the ones that are going to believe in you the most and you know, they're probably the easiest people to get money off, but they're not going to invest in you. No matter how well you know them, if you're friends or family, if you don't have 100% conviction to be able to see what you're doing through.
They're definitely the easiest targets to get money off at the beginning because, you know, they, they know you as a person, hopefully they know that you believe in what you're doing from there. Once you've started to close some of your round, you can then move forward with going out to both warm and cold connections now.
I think there's a big mantra in the startup space that, you know, you should never go from cold and this kind of thing, and it's always best to get a warm connection. Well, yes, of course it's better to get someone to introduce you and to get that warm connection, but it doesn't mean you can't go from cold and we've raised loads of money from cold, so that tells you exactly that idea is wrong.
But the more you can raise at the beginning from those original people, the better it is to go to people from cold with, cause you've moved the dial forward. So, you know, look to try and get like 40% of your round done before you start going out and raising. I think that's a number I would give just, you know, if you can't then don't wait, but that's a kind of a good number to, to use. And that will then allow you to start.
you know, going out to cold and having a bit of conviction. You've got some backers, you've got some money and you've got some experts behind you. What I like to say, which I think is a cool trick to use at the beginning when you don't have money, what you need to do is to be smart and intuitive. And one of the things you do have is equity. So the experts and people like that, you can offer them equity as a, you know, as a kind of like, we'd love to bring you on as an advisor.
here is some small amount of equity within the business. So it's legit and it's proper and start getting them to, you know, help you with your fundraising as well. So I getting them to introduce people because once they have equity, they have skin in the game. That means that they want the business to succeed of course, because now they're not getting any payouts until the business succeeds and they have the equity now. So, you know, right at the beginning, when you don't have money, use what you do have, which is equity and start to see if you can see that out to the advisors. But...
Be careful to pick the right people. And we've been very lucky with the advisors and experts we have that they're all fantastic people. Some of them have equity, some don't. As we've grown, a lot of people have come to the business and invested themselves to buy the equity. But at the beginning, you need to be smart and you need to think, what have I got? What I can offer? Then start doing the friends and family, then start going out to the wider network. Of course, use the tools that are provided to you, things like, of course, LinkedIn. Make sure you're doing your research. We set up Google Alerts
things like dating app investment, dating apps, you know, UK seed investment, things like that. So you're getting those alerts through your being within the market and seeing who you can reach out to, then try and find those connections. And whether, if you don't have those connections, you can't find someone to go to them with, then just approach them from cold, because it's better to approach them from cold than not approach at all, for sure.
Tzakhi (11:59)
Yeah, well, first of all, definitely proven that cold outreach to investors has worked with you. I mean, we've closed, you've closed an investor just I think last week and there are a few in the pipeline. So, yeah, this is proven, at least with you, the system works. I also think an important point is that what starts cold ends up being warm. I mean, once someone is willing to meet you and you're in the meeting,
Jamie (12:24)
for sure.
Tzakhi (12:28)
Yeah, it would be better if you had someone to endorse you ahead of the meeting. But once you're there, by the end of the meeting, if you're...
genuine and you have something which is a value to offer, then if things go well, if the investor is also a decent person, you've probably bonded at least an extent by the end of that call. And that cold outreach now becomes a warm connection. And sometimes an investor can invest in you, and sometimes it might be too soon for them or they might be uncertain. But you'll be surprised that they'll help you by introducing you to other investors, or maybe they'll come on later on. Or
They're in your network and if these are people that have experience and value and have done things, then those connections have a lot of value.
and it compounds.
Jamie (13:23)
Sorry, Taki, it just buffered a little bit there. If you could repeat the last part of that question. I got the beginning part, but the last part buffered.
Tzakhi (13:28)
Yeah, I was just saying that.
Jamie (13:32)
going from warm to cold, yeah, from cold to warm.
Tzakhi (13:33)
Yeah. So once you reach out to people called outreach, once you're with them on a meeting, and if you're able to create a good bond with them during that meeting, by the end of that meeting, it's not a cold connection anymore. It's a warm connection. And the person on the other side, even if they are not certain enough to invest in you,
Oftentimes they'll be happy to help you, but either by introducing you to other people or maybe even in a later time, they'll either introduce you or invest, they'll stay in the loop. So there's a compounding value to those relationships and you're basically building up a network and building up relationships and sometimes relationships start from a cold message. It's okay.
Jamie (14:18)
100%. Yeah, I couldn't, I couldn't agree with you more. My, um, as I mentioned, my background has been in sales within the advertising and marketing spaces. Um, for the best part of 13 years, a lot of what I did was new business was cold. And, you know, I've been successful in my career doing that from, you know, leaving university to, to leaving and starting my own business, uh, you know, hit targets and all that kind of jazz. And, you know, for the best part, like I said, for 13 years, so cold outreach does work, but you have to, you know, it's,
of spike.
people selling things that people don't want. It's all about your research. Like for instance, you know, we are a consumer marketplace product. We, you know, have sectors that we look at and we target people within those sectors. You know, if the investor's thesis is FinTech, then clearly like me reaching out with my product is not relevant. And that's where the bad cold comes from. You need to have your targeting down to a T, make sure that you're going to the right people and go with the idea and the mantra that you're doing these guys a favor. You know, you're telling them
and if you didn't tell them that, then they will miss out on investing in your brand. I think it's very important, I always go into these meetings and when I message anyone from Cold, I'm coming to them with an idea they wouldn't know about unless I did it. And you have to, I mean, I'm pretty certain that all founders believe that, but if you don't, then we shouldn't be selling a product in my opinion, because you have to believe this is the next big thing, and that's what you're taking to these people and you're doing them a favour by approaching them.
Tzakhi (15:47)
Yeah, I think, you know, in the end, it's an investment is a business transaction and business is done when it's good for both parties. So you're offering something that's great for the investor. It should be great for the investor. Otherwise they shouldn't invest and it should be good for you, meaning the term should be good for you and the investor should help you grow and help you thrive with your startup. So
Jamie (15:53)
Mm-hmm.
Mm-hmm.
Tzakhi (16:10)
You have to come with that kind of confidence. And yes, you're bringing them something that otherwise they won't find. And if they're the type of person that isn't interested or is not even curious about hearing what you're doing and doesn't wanna know about your innovation or your business idea, then you've probably not done a very good job in research ahead of time because there are a lot of people that are interested.
A lot of angel investors are genuinely interested in meeting founders.
Jamie (16:41)
100%
Tzakhi (16:44)
And I think also your experience from sales and from outbound sales helps you do a great job with follow-up and keeping track of everything.
Jamie (16:57)
Yeah, I, you know, it's, it's very, it's a very interesting point. This and something I firmly believe in is that, you know, we're a technology company and, you know, I'm not a technical founder, you know, I can't build or write code or anything like that, but I've worked in the tech industry. You know, one of my previous roles was heading up a marketing tech, um, you know, the sales and growth function of a marketing tech platform.
One of the kickbacks we've had previously from investors, we only invest in businesses where the engineer or the tech guy is the founder, because we feel like that's the most important person in the team. And of course, the tech is extremely important. Without tech, there's no business. But I would say to anyone starting a business, I think this is the most important thing I'll say on this podcast. If you're a founder and you're jumping into becoming a founder or you're just starting your founding team, you need someone that knows how to sell
team. Otherwise, I think it's.
Yeah. In big trouble. I, I've, you know, you think about it like without tech, your business doesn't exist, but without sales, your business won't survive. Um, and so it's very important. You know, we've had conversations, you and I, about, you know, how I'm on top of things and, you know, I'm a good client of yours because I, you know, get things done quickly and, um, you know, I'm organized and that's just because of, you know, my background in training and the roles that I've been doing for the last, you know, 13 years, but I think it's super, super important to have someone that knows how to sell both on the calls.
that's how to manage a sales process and keep those people in the pipeline updated, keep them warm, keep all the tips and tricks that you know as a salesperson that it's so important to start up land. And I think when I started the business, I was really unsure about what was my role as CEO and co-founder. What does that mean?
But essentially I found out quite quickly the vast majority of it is selling the business or raising funds, which of course is still selling the business. So I was pretty well equipped for the role I was
Tzakhi (18:50)
Yeah, I think for investors, it's also super important to know that someone's going to drive the sales. And often if the team doesn't have that, they need to be ready with a good answer. Who's going to do the sales or how are we going to hire someone to get the sales or how are we going to partner with or bring in an investor that's going to help guide us because yeah, without sales, nothing is going to happen. And if you don't have good sales skills, it's make it difficult for you to raise money first and then to...
Take the business forward next or in tandem.
Jamie (19:26)
Yeah, 100%. And I think that's why it's quite important for anyone that's going to start a business to look at, you know, a salesperson coming on very early on that that's incentivized to go out there and sell, you know, sales is, you know, more often than not in the world is commission based. So you're getting those bonuses for moving forward. It's very tenacious. It's a it's a it's a role where you can work 100 hours a week if you want and still have nothing to show for at the end of the week. And it takes a very particular type of person
down and get back to it the next day or Monday like it's a fresh week. It's quite a mental role and that's why people are compensated for it, but also why there's not, I mean, it's a very small amount of people that are very, very good salespeople, but the ones that are very successful. And I think waiting too long to bring that person in is a mistake. I think they need to be in right from the get-go and they need to be, you know, part of the senior leadership team and incentivize to really believe that the
where you're going to get the best salesperson from. You know, of course, the engineers, you know, we have an extremely good engineer department, everything is in house for us. We we made a very conscious decision at the beginning that we didn't want to outsource staff to agencies and third parties. We wanted to control our IP. I'm very, very close with my head of product. Me and him talk, you know, three, four times a week. And so, you know, he's like my right hand man. But I'm the one that goes out into the trenches and knocks on the doors and sells a business and does a podcast and does the PR interviews.
all these types of things that we're doing now, which is a, you know, it's a, it's a, it's a, it's a very exhausting role. And one very, that's very rewarding, but it also can come with a lot of downtime where, you know, you, you will go times where you won't sell stuff, you will go times where stuff doesn't land properly and you've got to just keep dusting yourself off and, and be on top of it. And I think also what's really important is you get someone like, yeah, they can sell, but they can deal with all the management of sales, the process, the pipeline,
really shocked the other day I was on a call with a potential investor and they were saying, how often do you keep us updated about what's going on in the business? And I said, well, of course, every month we send a monthly update to not only the investors, but the pipeline, people that we've worked with in the industry, PR people. I think you're on that email, Taki. So she was like, oh, hold on, you message every month, you send something every month. And I said,
Keeping people updated. You know, you don't know how, you know, we put struggles of the business in that email, like, oh, we're struggling in this area, or this is stuck. And, you know, like you mentioned earlier, people wanna help. And so we get replies. Might not always be, we send that out and we get people replying with money, but we get people that go, oh, I know a guy, or I know this woman that works, or she can help you. So, you know, keeping everyone updated monthly, making sure your pipeline, if you, you know, God forbid you get hit by a bus and you have to go to hospital, you know, someone can pick up your pipeline and they know. Yes, they spoke to that person.
Tzakhi (21:56)
It should be.
Jamie (22:26)
person on this day, this is how likely it is to close. This is, you know, some notes, you know, make notes on the people you're speaking to. You know, do they like sports? Do they have a dog? Like all these little things where you can bring that up in conversation and start building that relationship, connecting more with that person. Try and find your common ground. You know, everyone's got common ground with someone. There's something you will have done where you can connect and start building that relationship. You mentioned everything starts from, well, things start from cold, they move to hot. They're the tips and tricks you can use to start getting that relationship a lot warmer.
I think you've got to have that person in your team, whether it's you, it's got to be either the founder or it's got to be someone close to the founder or co-founder that's there from the start to be able to pick that role up because it's so important and it's very, very tricky role. Very, very difficult.
Tzakhi (23:12)
Yeah, and if you're a founder and you're not the kind of person that wants to deal with sales, then if you are the one leading the investments, you need to take some of those sales skills and some of those processes into your fundraising no matter what.
A lot of the, even the mental skills or the perseverance that it takes, the ability to withstand a lot of no's and a lot of waiting and a lot of uncertainty, those are things that every founder has to be able to handle because it's coming whether you like it or not. So, yeah, I think what you're saying is super valuable and I think investors also appreciate
there will be actual business made beyond just an idea and capital raised.
Jamie (24:05)
Yeah, again, I couldn't agree with you more than this. You've got to have the mental side of it because running a business and leaping into the unknown and you know how much runway's there, you know how much you need to close, you know you need this hire, but you need to raise. It's kind of all on your shoulders and it's very important, I think, to keep sales, as you know, keep people involved within the business so they know kind of where you're at, but keep it removed so that they don't have the anxiety that you have so they can do their jobs. The last thing they need to be knowing is like, oh, that deal didn't come through,
thing that we've got to get over the line before this will happen. You've got to try and keep that removed because you don't want to start seeping into the team who are doing their roles, that there's anything that can push them off track. So, you know, I keep the team updated, like, okay, we had some good calls this week. This person invested, this person said no, but for later time, but that's about it. You know, I don't talk to them about, you know, how much, you know, we need to put in to get out. I don't talk to them about how I'm feeling, but I do talk to one of our advisors
Ash, one of the ex senior members of Badoo, who obviously, you know, one of the world's biggest dating products. And he does about half an hour of me about the business and half an hour of me about my mind and, you know, how I'm feeling. And, you know, I kind of use him as a bit of a therapist. And if he's listening to this, I thank you very much for our call every Tuesday. It's actually today in a few hours. But it's important just to be able to have someone you can confide in, talk about how you're feeling, but try and keep that removed from the team because they need a, you know, the guy, the battle guy to go out into the trenches and exercise.
is very important and you know take some time you know I think another thing that's really beneficial to me is to realize that like time off can really help you I think when you're in sales you've got that number you're focusing on that number you think any break from trying to attack that number is going to be detrimental but actually you know I took some time off the other week and you know I did some bits here and there but the vast majority day I was kind of spending time with family I was on a ski skiing so I was doing a lot of exercise getting out in the mountains stuff
on top of the calls and you can see a difference in the energy you can put into things. So you need to balance your pipeline and your business, but also balance that with your mental wellbeing because no one wants to be on a call with an unenthusiastic salesperson, I can assure you. That's how you don't sell. So.
Be aware of your body, your body will tell you when you need a break. Have someone that you can confide in, that you can talk to and be open and honest with. But also try and keep a lot of that separate from the team who need to focus on what they're doing with no distractions.
Tzakhi (26:36)
Yeah, interesting. I think that's a very good point that it's, it's the similarity to sales is not only in the processes, but also in the mental capacities that you need in the, and the support that you need to give to yourself to perform at your best at meetings and to keep it all together in front of your team, in front of investors.
Yeah, absolutely. And we've had a conversation here with Hannibal Maldonado, who is also a brilliant founder. And she spoke about the same, about how she prepares for meetings by getting herself in a good, calm, confident mental state and how much that helps her. Jamie, thanks a lot. This is really, really useful and very helpful and very interesting. What if investors want to reach out to you? Where should they find you?
Jamie (27:30)
Yeah. And I, by the way, I feel totally the same. I, you know, I do quite a lot of podcasts and I always actually prefer doing the, the B2B ones, um, just so we can talk more about experiences, but we do it, obviously it being a consumer product, we do a lot of consumer ones. So this has been really enjoyable for my time as well. So thank you so much for having me on. Um, so yeah, just a little bit about this round. So as you know, we're, we're in the, um, right at the end of, uh, of our kind of pre seed plus or something, you know, like a middle round between, between seed and pre seed.
And we're really near the end of closing. Right now, we're pushing about 85% of the way there. But if people want to connect with me to see the deck, see all those experts I was talking to you about, see all the people that we have on our cap table. And we've got a lot of stuff I kind of would love to talk to people about one-on-one about the future of dating and how we feel we've really got a real key difference from a functionality point of view, which I won't go into here, but you can certainly ask me about it, but it's a real game changer,
from a business and monetary point of view. My name is Jamie Johnston, which is J-A- You can find me on LinkedIn, of course. And the social media accounts are Matter, which is with no E, so mattr.social on Instagram and TikTok.
So if you want to have a look at some of the stuff we're doing, you can go check there, but LinkedIn is the best place to drop me a message and just reference the podcast. And I'll be more than happy to, to catch up with you, send you the deck and take a call and talk about what we're doing in the future of the industry.
Tzakhi (29:02)
Awesome. I'll keep links to your LinkedIn profile on to your web page. Jamie, thanks a lot. This was wonderful.
Jamie (29:05)
Please do.
Thank you so much for having me and have a great rest of the day.
Tzakhi (29:15)
You
