Tzakhi (00:00)
Hi Mark.
Mark (00:01)
Hi, it's Saki. It's a pleasure to talk with you today.
Tzakhi (00:05)
Yes, it's a pleasure to have you. We're at the Meet That Capital startup podcast with Mark Eagle, a person with exceptional experience in the world of startups and business. You've started as both a software engineer and a psychologist, and you've been part of multiple companies, multiple exits, CEO of a public company. So many things. Maybe I should let you introduce yourself a bit.
Mark (00:36)
Okay, thanks. And again, thanks for having me. I love to talk about myself, I guess. I studied computer science and psychology at an East Coast engineering school. And when I was looking for a job, I wanted to do everything. So I found a job where I could design software, I could write code, I could test code, I could work with users, and I quickly learned to manage a team. But what I was really wanting to do was scale something.
And that was a big theme around my whole career. And so when I was young and crazy, I did a startup building software for ad agencies in New York City. And that was a phenomenal journey. It took me through 12 mergers and acquisitions. We got onto Inc. magazine's top 25 fastest growing companies in America list. It took me from New York to Denver, Colorado, which is where I now live.
We were able to do two public exits and we grew to 1200 people at which time I was doing more HR and bureaucracy than I ever wanted to do and any entrepreneur wants to do. So I then became an executive at a public company that did college planning and there we helped 10 ,000 students a year navigate the high school to college transition process and figuring out what they want to do.
when they grow up and use their money wisely to get the next set of education. And after being an officer at a public company, I realized that that's the worst thing I could wish on any of my enemies. And so I went back into doing startups. And so I've done quite a number of startups, as well as advising startups, and then to round that out and put my money where my mouth is, so to speak, invested in startups.
Tzakhi (02:34)
Yeah, so you've really been all around from building startups, taking them all the way to a public company through various types of exits. And of course, being an investor in startups. So you really have been on both sides and then all through the journey. We'll get to the startup tips in the end, as you know, but I know a big thing for you and...
building and scaling startups is surrounding yourself with the right people and choosing the right people. So maybe you can tell us a bit about that. How to choose the right people, especially early on. I mean, when you're just getting started, it's really a small team. And how do you do that at that?
Mark (03:21)
Yeah. So one of the tips I give, and, my New York, you stating that is don't be the smartest person, the smartest person in the room, being the smartest person in the room is a killer. Investors will hate that. Anyone you work with will hate that. And you're probably not the smartest person in the room anyway. So the idea is to surround yourself with great people. And so there's a number of ways to do that. And.
The first thing I did was figure out myself, do an analysis of what I'm really good at, what I love doing, and where are my gaps? And find that first, if you're doing a startup, you need your partner, find a partner that will compliment you and also make it fulfilling for you. So when I started WAVE, it's the World Alliance for Volunteer Economy.
We were trying to do something really huge. We were trying to create a volunteer economy where by volunteering, you could trade that in for all sorts of things from high school, college education to what we found out people really wanted with Starbucks cards. But I knew my, by that time I had figured out my skillsets and what I really wanted and what I, I can execute on anything, but I'm not the most visionary guy.
I'm pretty, I used to say I'm not creative, but I'm pretty creative. I'm just not a visionary. So I found a visionary who had created something that a vision is something you almost can't ever reach. And his vision was this huge volunteer economy. And so the skill I have was be able, able to understand his vision, no matter how detailed he got, figure out what was practical in bringing it to reality.
And then starting to execute on pieces, which was really rewarding to me. And I, and so I wanted that skillset of visionary. And ideally I wanted someone who could close deals. so I wouldn't have to be out selling all the time, but you find out that the visionary really can't close deals, but if they can bring people to the table that I could talk to, and had a bigger role to deck, so to speak than I did that, that could work. So that, that was something that I learned early on.
Find a partner that compliments you. And so together, you'll be able to cover all the things. Because as you and probably everyone in the audience knows is running a startup is really hard. You've got a lot of things you need to know. You need to know if you're a technical guy, you just have to know the technology. But you have to know marketing, you have to know sales, which some people don't even realize that sales and marketing are different. You have to know accounting, you have to know how to hire people. There's tons of stuff.
And there's no way that any individual person is going to be an expert in all those disciplines. So find what you're good at doing, what you really like doing. And then if you're hiring people, delegate the things you don't. And then the founder, find the things that really compliment you.
Tzakhi (06:31)
But can you say something about how to find the right person? Because one thing is looking for people with the right kind of skill set to compliment you. Another thing is to getting them on board when all you have is almost nothing as a starter.
Mark (06:48)
Yeah. So the founder's the hardest person to find. And I think that's either, I don't know, I want to say somewhat serendipitous or something about like the way the universe works to just find that person. Because unless you've worked with someone before, it's kind of like finding a wife or something where you just don't know how to, no one really knows how to do that. You just kind of do it.
put yourself into situations where you can meet those kinds of people. I found that I've been in co -founders networks and stuff and it doesn't really work. You're almost forcing it. That's almost like going on a dating app. So go to events where there's other people that are like -minded and eventually you'll find someone that you gel with and you know, that's to find your founder. And then when you find your team, that's leadership skills. If you've got a great vision and people...
believe in you and want to follow you, then you have no trouble finding good people and building your team. So to find them, go to, I tell people when they're going to networking events, which people don't realize how important networking is throughout their whole career, whether it's having a particular job or being, doing a startup is go to events where the speaker has something that you're really interested in. So in worst case, you'll learn something.
but you're gonna be in a room with like -minded people that are there for similar reasons as you. And those are the kind of people that you're gonna find and want on your team. And it's part of its likeability. There's a lot of culture fit. Obviously you want the skills, that's a given. But you're gonna work with these people, particularly your founder, people call them your second wife or something. But...
You're going to be working with them for 40, 60 hours a week. And so you want to make sure that they're the right people that you can work with. Now, having said that, one of the first things I tell people is to make sure that you have a ironclad operating agreement and people say, I grew up with this guy. He went to, we shared a dorm in college and it's going to be great. Well, you don't create these few legal documents you need because things are going to go right. You create.
you create them because in the worst case, something could go wrong. And then if something goes wrong, it's already decided how it's gonna, how you're gonna break up. And so make sure that you've got the right person and you know, just work together and move forward.
Tzakhi (09:29)
How did you meet your co -founders or the co -founder at Wave?
Mark (09:34)
Well, in all sorts of different ways. My first co -founder happened to be my boss and quick story there, working for a software company. I'll never forget this. I love this story. We were killing it and the owner had a number of divisions and we were the only one doing really well. And so he was going to sell us.
And so I talked to him and I said, you know, if I'm such a key player, as you keep telling people, like I'd like to meet the owner because I'm going to be working for him. And he said, yeah, that's not going to be a problem, Mark. I'll let you do that. So I met a guy, I met the first owner, the potential buyer who came in and I'll never forget this. He said, you know, do you have any questions? And I said, yeah, what can you do for me? Why would I want to do?
you know, join this organization, continue in this organization. And he literally patted me on the head like this and said, Sonny, you don't get it. How old are you? 20 something? What are you going to do for me? And I looked over at the owner and I said, I'll tell you in the morning. And I went in the morning and said, I'm quitting and I'm going to start a firm. And by the way, we're going to cut.
compete against you guys. But no, I didn't say the last part, but that's what we did. And I just hoped that my boss who had been shouting about for a while was treated a little differently than me because they offered me the sun, the moon and the stars to keep me. And I had just hoped they didn't do the same with my business partner. And luckily they didn't. They tossed him out and, you know, luckily, and we just started it.
and did great. A funny part of the story is 15 years later, we ended up buying that company. So it was kind of a funny... Yeah, we ended up buying them 15 years later. And my boss ended up two levels below me in the org structure, which was kind of funny. So that was the first one. In Wave...
Tzakhi (11:43)
So the company that originally was supposed to buy you, you ended up buying them.
Mark (12:00)
I called Universe Factors or something. I had sent out a Christmas card. Again, I talk about how important networking is. And I sent out an end of year seasonal card or whatever you want to call it. And I put in comics and some humorous things and also talk about what I've accomplished during the year. And I send it to my network of 500 people, not my LinkedIn network. I don't call that a network. But, and...
Immediately my phone rang. This woman who I hadn't seen in about seven years, but we had done a few things together in the past, said she was literally on the phone and they were asking her all these questions about an app and all this technology stuff. And she was working on this huge, great project, which turned out to be this volunteer network and literally pulled over to go to a Starbucks and catch her breath when she's...
She looked at her emails and saw mine immediately called me up and she said, you'd love what we're doing. you know, can, can you come over and chat? And, I hadn't thought of you in years, but you were the perfect person for, you know, answering all the questions of the call I just had. So it was just kind of timely serendipitous, but it's having that good network that's out there that knows what you're good at doing. So I hate selling so that you're not selling.
People just want to do business with you. And if you're in the right place at the right time and being on top of mind, you eventually find these kinds of partners. So that's how I ended up getting introduced to the Visionaria Wave and for a couple of years, you know, did some really cool stuff.
Tzakhi (13:47)
Yeah, so you kind of set yourself up for luck by building your network ahead of time and then reaching out to your network. You sent an email to everyone basically.
Mark (13:57)
Yeah, I send out rather, I don't do LinkedIn messaging or anything. Every year I send out a kind of a short email with a holiday greetings with a note that's with some cartoons is my personal style. So that if nothing else, people will send me back notes that say, love your cartoons. But, you know, I put in a call to action and I get back about a 75 % rate of people that say, let's catch up. And so,
You know, at least you, you move up onto the top of mind that if I'm looking for something to do, or I always want to know what other people are doing, you never know. Technology is constantly changing. There's so many things to do. there's so many exciting things that, where do you get involved? Where, and if someone, you know, you just chat with someone and they go, this is what I'm up to. and I've got, we've got a lot of tech challenges. yeah. You know, tech, you know, do you know anyone who can do this? And.
Like, what are you up to lately? You know, do you have bandwidth to do any projects or, you know, and that's how almost everything's gone with my career. You know, whether it was when I did a high school sports startup, I just, you know, a guy I used to work with in the broadcasting industry had gone over to this company. He got my Christmas, I say Christmas card, but it's really an annual holiday greetings card.
called me up and said, man, the CTO we currently have is horrible. He's just a lead developer. We need an executive that can just roll up their sleeves, but also be strategic. and he knew some of the guys that I had worked with in New York city, like 15 years ago, when I was doing broadcasting, he had moved to Denver long time ago and, knew what I could do. called up a couple of his colleagues in New York to vet me out.
And they said, yeah, do business with them if you can. And I love the mission. The next day I met the CEO and he basically said, here's my two challenges, but can I try you out for a week? And that week turned into five years. So.
Tzakhi (16:14)
Wow, so out of that holiday greeting came a job in one of the great success stories that you were part of.
Mark (16:24)
Yeah, because if you're looking for a job and you try to go onto job boards, good luck, especially in this climate. And if you're looking for a startup founder and you first start to go to startup networking meetings, that could be your project. So you want to be, as we talked about before, you want to know great people, surround yourself always with great people, and then kind of know if it ever came around.
These are people I'd love to work with.
you know, and then you get a chance to work with them.
Tzakhi (17:00)
And I'm guessing they also helped you not only on your individual career, but also in the companies that you were part of. That kind of networking probably helped you grow your companies too.
Mark (17:13)
Yeah, you, you, you make friends for life, so to speak. I mean, that's what you're, I define my contacts in my network is that if I had a, an event next week and my leads, my lead speaker called me up and said, Mark, my son is very sick and I, I can't, be the keynote speaker. I can get on my phone and text three people and have someone say, sure, Mark, I'd love to help you out. I can carve out a couple hours next Thursday night and give a speech on something.
And that's what I consider a real network. And if you can develop that, then you don't have to do RFPs and you don't have to do a lot of heavy lifting when you need to find an accountant or find a lawyer or find your next opportunity.
Tzakhi (17:59)
Okay, Mark, you know, you've been involved in quite a few companies, building them up right from the start. What is your approach to raising capital if you have a philosophy around that? At what stage do you think should founders raise? Are you one of those that believe in trying to bootstrap as much as possible before raising capital? Or do you believe in going and raising it?
capital early on and trying to scale fast.
Mark (18:31)
Yeah. So I personally am an early stage investor. That's other than stock market stuff, but I love early stage because there's the biggest reward and the biggest challenge. And even if I don't make money, I find it fun and I'm helping people and get, and learning new stuff. So I'm me most, most likely because it's been my background. I'm a big fan of bootstrapping.
and not taking money until you need it. But at that point where you really want to scale and you have something, then that's when I advise people to get money when they're ready to scale. That first round, people burn through that first, say, $500 ,000 to a million dollars. They don't treat it like their own money. I don't like that. But people that build up the foundation,
They have a go -to -market strategy. They reach a certain level of penetration into the market. And now they just, they need a lot more hands. They have defined processes for both development and for getting clients. That's when it's time to, not, that's when it's time to take the money. Now, along the way, you need to plant those seeds and talk to the right people and figure out your strategy because as soon as you're,
You know, you can't just get the money the day you need it. So you need to start again. It's about those relationships, build relationships with early stage investors, go to the venture club meetings that are in your area, talk to local VCs, depending on where you think you're going to want your money from and get to know them. But not at the beginning by building relationships, which is again, my style building relationships. And then when you need something, ask.
because they're more likely to say yes. And so you build the relationships and then when you have something and you can say, I've got this business that we just need capital to pour gas on the fire and fuel it up. They're very receptive to hearing your pitch and that's the time I recommend people raise money.
Tzakhi (20:46)
Yeah, well, I think especially now, it's probably the wiser path because it's just harder to raise money. So as much as you can, you want to come to that moment when you're already ready and built up your network and also have something to show for. So yeah, definitely. Mark, this was great. Before we go, I'd like to ask you, as I ask all my guests, if you could give us five tips.
for startups from your experience.
Mark (21:20)
Okay, so first identify what you're really good at doing and love doing it. Conventional wisdom says that if you do what you love, you'll never work a day in your life. And people say that entrepreneurs are lonely and frustrated. That shouldn't be the case. So find someone that compliments you, compliments your skills. Then to follow on with that, surround yourself with great people.
Find a board that has contacts and experience. I had investors that ran SiriusXM radio. I met with Ted Turner, the guy whose father, the airport in Houston is named after was on my board. These guys have Rolodexes and expertise that you can tap into. And too many people treat their business as a hobby.
If you start working instead of your 60 hours a week, 40 hours a week or 20 hours a week, you're not going to get your startup off the ground. So define upfront if you have the runway to make your business go without capital for three, six months, whatever you think it is, and then triple it. And if you don't have that runway, don't do it because you're going to need to do that as an investor of early stage.
Once I started asking that question, I was a lot more successful because I got people who were really committed. The next tip is don't be a perfectionist. Perfectionists will slow down your delivery and time to market is always important in a startup. And you're also going to drive everyone around you crazy if you're a perfectionist. So particularly when you're building that MVP, the purpose of an MVP is to get it out and get feedback. So.
Don't do that. When I applied that only that advice to myself when I started a pickleball coaching business that I recently started and it really, it was beneficial. So sometimes it's good to eat your own dog food. And then the biggest thing I see startups fail is because they don't have a go to market strategy. They say they do, but when I ask them to articulate it, they can't. So I want to know.
what your go -to -market strategy is, and what you're doing every day, and what metrics you're measuring every day to execute on that. And if you can tell me that, you're probably 75 % of the way to checking my boxes for getting an investment.
Tzakhi (24:00)
Awesome, Mark, thanks so much. Those were great tips. And now just before we go, who should reach out to you? I know that you advise a lot of startups. Yeah, what kind of founders do you like to work with and who should contact you?
Mark (24:20)
Yeah. So my background is tech, but as you've heard, I've talked about go to market and other things. So, and basically what I've done for most of my career is SaaS, software as a service type companies. So any companies there, that need a fractional CTO, I love to help. Most people have a technical guy and they call them a CTO, but they're not CTOs, they're lead techs. And so with being in the boardroom and traveling around the world and being a C level executive,
I'm able to align that business and technical strategy together and give you what you need. And I only ask for one or two hours a week working with my customers because they can take it from there. They just need to be put on the right path and know what questions to ask because sometimes they don't even know what to ask. So those are the type of companies that I love to advise and startups.
As I talked about, I did a podcast on 45 minutes of talking about the MVP, figuring out the MVP is critical, figuring out your go -to -market is critical. So anyone who just needs an advisor to bounce things off of on a weekly basis so that they don't make the same mistakes I did or don't make silly mistakes, they're perfect for me to want to work with and vice versa.
Tzakhi (25:48)
Okay, Mark, excellent. We'll include your LinkedIn in our notes. And I should also add, you're going to be joining us as an expert on Meet .Capitol, which we're very excited about, so people can connect with you through Meet .Capitol. And again, thanks so much. This was wonderful. If you're listening wherever you are on YouTube or on Spotify, subscribe.
so that you can get the next episodes more easily. And if you haven't done so already, come to me .capital and subscribe to our newsletter. You'll get five startup tips every week into your inbox and a lot of other great stuff. Thanks so much, Mark.
Mark (26:33)
Well, thank you very much. I appreciate talking with you and love what you guys are doing.
Tzakhi (26:38)
Thank you, thank you, bye bye.
Mark (26:40)
Bye bye.
